I had some questions instantly arise, and we both wanted to engage with our readers (that’s YOU!) in stretching out the discussion on this recently-uncovered data! So much about art and money, ethics and motivations are involved, and lines could be drawn in a variety of arenas.
Chris is a statistician and a singer/songwriter/musician, so he’s got plenty of “skin in the game” and expertise all over the place in both disciplines, so he’s the perfect person to have present as we see how you feel about this rapidly-evolving art vs commerce debate.
Plus, we both have several past and present veteran songwriters on our subscriber rolls, so we’d love to hear their expertise, answers, and questions!
Here’s Chris’s article that started it all! The video below (which features Chris being interviewed) is also embedded within his article, so you can view it there, if you’d like!
Did Max Martin start short intro-ing BECAUSE he noticed the $/streaming ratio, and purposely wanted to (understandably) capitalize?
Or, was he writing short intros, anyway, and that happened to luckily coincide with the onset/popularity of streaming?
Are artists and music fans of the past 2 decades content with the recent “Martin-izing” of the songwriting craft?
And, if a similar songwriting constraint (“ooh, get that intro down to 7 seconds,” etc) existed in the ‘60s and ‘70s, say, how many classic songs might we have been robbed of hearing?
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Thanks for the share, Brad. I think Martin is like any other songwriter in that he has his own tastes. Many of those happen to line up with commercial appeal but I don’t think it’s much different in the abstract from the Motown machine decades ago.
Bringing up Motown raises the notion of "assembly line" pop, a "charge" that's been leveled before, in several directions (Spector's girl groups, any late '60s bubblegum team, not excluding the Wes Farrell/Partridge camp, and the Kasenetz/Katz cabal, the '70s UK Chinn & Chapman, Phil Wainman, et al), and others (disco had its share of assembly line writers, too)!
It may be tough to differentiate between the analog $ motivations pre-PC/pre-streaming and the quite obvious, in-your-face numbers, algorithms, and time motivations now...all of which makes it easy to point accusatory (however unfair they may be) fingers in the direction of a Martin, say, as exploiting the biz model of streaming for monetary gain.
I plead guilty to making that charge, and since Chris is on this thread, I also would say data support the charge. "Intro-shortening" strikes me as the bluntest of the instruments in Max Martin's arsenal, but not the only one. And Martin is one of eight or nine pure songwriters who have mastered a set of algorithms for writing hits. Whether those hits will be remembered in another generation is another question. See my article on this topic (Brad, I had been hoping you would dig into it and comment but I don't think you ever did) https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/the-songwriters-who-ate-america-part
Thanks, Charles....I'll make sure I check out that article....FR&B readers can feel free to click on it and all things, Zapatos Jam-jacent! I will say, Charles, that despite my initial 😱at hearing and reading Chris's intro/timing/algo data re: Martin, I need to add my plaudits to Max for his surveying the delivery-system landscape (as it sits today....or 2 decades ago!), and simply using his talent within its confines...
Or, more to other point, it's newly-found freedom....or, at least, the fact that it's now possible (as Chris has so deftly and fascinatingly found) to identify and quantify a piece of the songwriting/recording/monetizing of "the beast" we were really never privy to before.
So, now....artists like Martin (and others, as you mentioned) can tailor his craft to maximize listenability; and, that's OK. If radio (and now, the 'net) has taught us anything, it's that listenability can translate to airplay/streams, and in turn, that usually results in profits...and, that's OK, too. Hey, I'm softening! Look at me!😁👍Nice add, Charles! Now, to your earlier article!
Hey Brad, you make a valid point--it's no different than any market. The producer can try to give the customer what the data says the customer wants. The troubling thing is that producers have more agency than they want to admit. Kraft dedicated six decades to conditioning Americans to like uniform, processed, bland food. Our ancestors who came over from the Old World didn't eat that way--it was invented, and then marketed aggressively, and actually changed peoples' tastes. Now we learn it's unhealthy. It turns out that, like Martinized songwriting, junk food is addictive. So the fact that people compulsively consume it has been decoupled from whether or not it's actually good. The formula is so effective that the door is now open to AI to replace even the Max Martins of the world.
Bingo! Great analogy, with food in general, but the famous blue box that befriended so many college freshmen for decades! We hope Max and his cohorts of the past couple decades have been saving their pre-AI money!
Jun 16, 2023·edited Jun 16, 2023Liked by Brad Kyle
Hey. I skimmed the article. I hope to read it properly later/over the weekend. Very interesting. I like the topic. However my initial feeling (I still need to process this so I may change my mind after reading properly) is that 'pop' music has always been driven by at least two fundamental underlying factors (at least two!). They are commerce. And technology. And both have shaped 'pop' music for decades. So this is nothing new, Spotify is both combined, technology and commerce all in one. And there has always been a cultural pushback against commercial pop music (that's why the Indie labels originally appeared). To give just one (of many examples)... a pop song in the 50s and 60s (and on into the 70s and 80s) had to be 3 minutes (maybe 3.30 longest, but better 2.30) because you could not realistically get a longer song on to one side of a 7 inch vinyl 45 rpm record and maintain the audio quality. There was no other reason for a pop song always to be 3 minutes, it was due to the limits of the technology of the time. And of course also due to pop radio DJs - you needed a short, powerful intro so that your song stood a chance to get play listed, and they would fade songs after about 2.30-3.00 minutes anyway. So record companies would push artists to use arrangements that fit into this format... a short intro but long enough for a DJ to talk over, get to the first chorus ASAP to plug the hook, the earworm, keep long solos for album tracks, etc, etc... And of course there was always the counter culture to all of this homogenised pap - think ProgRock in the late 60s and 70s, with meandering arrangements and vastly long solos...
Good points all, Nic! Thanks! You're right about the vinyl limits of a single, but, of course, radio programmers wanted to cram in as many songs as possible in any given day-part to maximize ad time, hence the desire for acts to trim their songs (and record companies and producers wanting to "fudge" the timing they'd print on the labels to "work around" those limits)....and, that's when your mention of the jocks, fading early anyway, comes in!!
I guess I see today's dilemma a little (a lot?) more alluring to songwriters to "wrench" their art to desperately squeeze their song to meet the streaming "demands," just so they can affect a payday.
The only art-altering that may have gone on back in the day was simply time-related, which all could be forced anyway, as I mentioned before (by the jock, the producer, or anyone wanting to turn a "3:45" into a "2:55" just by what they typed on the label)!
Holla back, Nic, if you glean more after reading the article more fully!
Very interesting discussion. I still need to read the article and watch the video, but as a preliminary comment, I think the times influence the hits as much as the hits influence the times.
If you analyse the biggest hits in the US in the last, say, six or seven decades, you can roughly outline certain patterns, which are distinctive to each particular moment in time. One characteristic I think they all share, regardless of the decade, is that major hits tend to be both innovative and relatable. The average consumer needs relatability (we all know how powerful the influence of certain processes such as identification can be, not just in music -- e.g. advertising, film, etc.). But the biggest hits always manage to bring something else (in the past it used to be something “from the future”, or at least, from the future collective masses imagined). Then it was the retro element: bringing something from the past. I feel nowadays it shifts back and forth. In sum, what pulls people the most seems to be an improved/embellished/reimagined version of themselves.
That, to me, is key. Then, on top of that, there are of course tendencies or trends (the magic of 3 minute long hits, which duration now seems to have become shorter courtesy of narrower attention spans courtesy of social media platforms). Of course all that has a huge influence. But I insist that, to me, at least, the basic ingredients are relatability with a pinch of innovation.
I think you are right about the emphasis on "relatability" but it's a sad commentary on our culture. That emphasis is a modern tic. Through most of human history, art was not premised on relatability, but on beauty and awe. In much of the world, it still is. Only in America, which is clearly the most spoiled and narcissistic society in the world, does so much hang on "relatability". As for the 3 minute rule, I don't get it. That rules out most great music, and I guess that is why classical music is dying in America. Interestingly, though, a lot of ski-lift operators keep classic 60s rock playing all day, and they are all 20-somethings. So there is hope.
I agree to some extent that the issue with relatability seems to be a feature of consumerist societies where art is treated as another commodity. I agree that most great songs exceed 3 minutes but hits are not necessarily great songs. To become a hit, a song needs to resonate with the masses, and most people lack the sensitivity/technical knowledge/depth of thought to appreciate, say, a 10-minute-long progressive rock piece. Let alone classical music. It is beyond many people’s scope of comprehension, ability or interest. I sometimes get frustrated that some songs I really love never enjoyed any kind of success. But then I imagine how many people would struggle to truly appreciate them or understand them, and I’m glad they are unaware of them, so I don’t have to get angry or frustrated 😅
Highly sophisticated art, in whatever form, is almost always at odds with industrialised music for the masses. Truly great stuff (in life as in music) rarely becomes mainstream.
All wonderfully said, Andy! My favorites: "Hits are not necessarily great songs" and "Truly great stuff (in life as in music) rarely becomes mainstream"!
You've put in more elegant terms what I was trying to get at, so I guess we are in violent agreement! I've also enjoyed my share of 3-minute hits (ABBA, anyone?) but any time I try to defend deeper music, I get slammed for being a snob. Can't win!
I think you may have said first what I was praising Andy for, Charles! I've been reading some of these woefully out of order! I've been stunned and humbled by the wonderful number of responses (and the thoughtful and creative comments!), and didn't get to them until after they sort of piled up!
There's more than enough credit for all, though! I think we've all experienced the "sugar high" of a well-written radio pop song (speaking of ABBA, whom I've loved, have you heard "Waterloo"?...they're so much more than their disco hits!), but we've also enjoyed digging into the filet mignon (that doesn't personally resonate....here, lemme try "all-you-can-eat-shrimp"----there, much better!) of a Pink Floyd album, or a Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" album.
Ex: Raspberries "Go All the Way" and Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" both came out in 1972. I loved and listened, a LOT, to both at the time. The performances, yes, but they can't perform what hasn't been written, so the common thread for both is incredible songwriting.
Disclosing the first, back in the day (I was a high school junior), might've resulted in being called a slave to the radio; the latter, a pretentious poser! We like what we like...and, that's OK, and always has been!🎶🌟😁👍
Interesting that you both mention ABBA, because apparently (I read this very recently), one of Max Martin's biggest influences was ABBA. Predictably so, being a Swedish hitmaker. Another thing I learned was that Max and his team, at least in the early stages, would write the song(s), play all the instruments, record most of it, reach several stages of production, and only then would he/they bring the singer to the studio. In other words, he worked more like the leader of a band with alternating singers. At least that was the case with Britney Spears (I highly doubt it was/is the case with other artists that get heavily invested in their own songwriting, e.g. Adele).
I mentioned this elsewhere here, Andy, but one reason Max is so invested in his productions (which I didn't know, so thanks for that news....another piece of the puzzle) is that he was a lead singer of a rock band in the '80s, It's Alive!, with two albums (exclamation theirs). So, he's more than just a "behind-the-scenes" guy....it's official....I'm a fan!
Clearly, Martin is so much more than a johnny-come-lately hack JUST taking advantage of today's new algo/streaming jungle. He's a supremely talented all-around musician who knows his way around a lead sheet, and doesn't mind "getting his hands dirty" helping artists bring his songs to life, from studio to the top o' the charts!
What an eye-opening thread, with wonderfully thoughtful comments throughout, from everybody!
Thank you, Chris, for the original data and article, and your help in "birthing" this thread! And, thank you, everyone, for participating! (I know I should've done this at the end, but there may be more contributions, and this would've then ceased being at the end)!😁👍
Yes indeed we are (and thanks for what you said about "elegant terms" :)). Oh absolutely, I love a hit too, and I also enjoy deeper/more elaborate stuff (particularly when it has a soulful vibe). Some people consume music for entertainment purposes only, it's a means to an end, and that's okay. For others like us and many others, music is not just a means AND an end: it's our reason for existence.
All good thoughts, Andy....your last paragraph got me thinking about why we call radio (and what it plays) "pop" music....short for "popular." Radio was first, of course, and had the same goals as TV, when it debuted (U.S.) in the late '40s: To make $ thru advertising local (at first) commercial concerns (furniture store, plumber, etc).
How do they reel in an audience to show a local biz their ads will have some eyes to see them? Put forth content that will draw and keep an audience. No one's going to tune into a radio station (or, later, a TV station) to see nothing but ads! But, create content to KEEP an audience, and they'll be there for when Ed's Office Supply airs their ad!
None of that is news, but often "the general public" forgets the reason they watch (or listen)....it's to watch or listen to the ads! That's how everyone makes money! The songs, the sitcoms, etc...that's all incidental, and nowhere close to what the programmers WANT to fill the airwaves with, but they're left with no choice if they want to attract ad buyers!
That's what got me so "huh?! Say what?!" about the intentionality of Martin so purposefully crafting songs to maximize profit, and not because his art and talent drew him to the lead sheet. It's like telling Picasso that the medium (in his case, the canvas maker) will pay him more if he uses fewer brush strokes! Would the art world have tolerated such blatant and crass bowing to the dollar over the honest expression of human talent?
I agree with most of your comment but have some reservations with your last paragraph. I don’t think the dichotomy you mention (art versus greed) applies in all cases. True, some artists make a point of being authentic, “not selling themselves” (whatever that means) and always prioritising their artistic expression over any commercial intention, which they quickly dismiss as greed. Call me sceptical or cynical but I’m not convinced what they say is entirely true. All artists want recognition. At some point, though, many realise that they have to choose between being really successful and doing what they really love.
In Max Martin’s case, he gets so heavily invested in the creation, production and even post-production of his songs that it can’t be just for the money. The guy is clearly passionate. You don’t work crazy hours on something artistic/creative just for the money (regardless of our own particular taste/attitude towards the songs, they still constitute an artistic project). A good listener can tell and detect (again, objectively speaking) whether there’s passion or fakery behind any given creation.
In sum, I don’t think all artists are either frustrated hippies or filthy capitalists. I think the vast majority, especially in pop, have found a compromise between what they love most and what they are best at selling, and they have worked hard to hone their skills in that specific role so they can keep growing. As always, humans beings are so psychologically complex that I try to stay away from stereotypes whenever possible.
I wrote you a wonderful reply, Andy, but managed to unwittingly delete it! Duh. I'll try to encapsulate: You're right, and I'm definitely softening in my initial knee-jerk reaction of cynicism and nefarious advantage-taking I hastily ascribed to Martin.
One of his talents has to be (along with a prodigious songwriting talent) "marrying" his gift to the present-day delivery system, a talent not to be diminished or overlooked! All artists/songwriters have used whatever limitations or availabilities extant in that era's music delivery system.
I mean, look at vinyl (I know who I'm talking to!!!😉https://vinylroom.substack.com/) songwriters/artists tried to stay within the confines of the 7" 45rpm single...they not only were constrained by the simple size of that medium, but gently fitting their art onto that PVC slab increased their chances of gaining airplay (as has been mentioned elsewhere here).
As for the LP, look no further than Jethro Tull's early '70s "Thick as a Brick" and "A Passion Play," each one song (according to composer, Ian Anderson), divided (if not with silent "banding," than with titles given by Anderson) into sections. Warner Bros. Records (who distributed the band's Chrysalis Records in the U.S.) even created and shipped (to radio) specially-banded promo albums of both LPs, in the hopes SOMEBODY at radio would/could be more likely to play a track or two (even, and especially FM...a single edit or two from each were serviced to AM)!
As for testing the bounds of the LP software of the day, hats off to Todd Rundgren and his 1973 "A Wizard, a True Star" album. Delivered to Warner Bros. (who distributed his Bearsville Records) at just under 56 minutes (nearly double the standard LP length of the day....up to 20 minutes a side), Todd even convinced the label to include a note on the back of the jacket!
To wit (paraphrasing), "The length of this album exceeds normal length, so with a necessarily narrower groove, sound will be diminished. Turn it up!" If you find this album worthy of covering on your "The Vinyl Room," let me know for a possible collab! I was a high school senior at the time, and loved the album........turned up!
Bottom line.......Max Martin is using his talent in the delivery medium of the day, just as all have done in each's respective era! Color me, now, a fan (unless it involves oil paint to any degree)!
I think we are all in agreement that Max (and the others of the Big 8) are to some extent simply working within the rubric of the system. I also agree that the "art vs. greed" dichotomy is not so black and white. I would simply add that Martin et. al have far more agency than they take credit for, and have more influence on the shape of the rubric than they want to admit. They are analogous to drug dealers who sell stuff that is addictive and then throw their hands up and say "I'm just giving people what they want". The scary thing, for them, is that their approach to songwriting has opened the door to their own replacement by AIs.
Well said, Charles.....and, everyone's entries have opened my eyes to realize all but your last sentence...which, of course, is just as true as it is scary!
Jun 17, 2023·edited Jun 17, 2023Liked by Brad Kyle
You want scary, there is already some stuff popping up on streaming that was generated by AI--including some youtube vids that have fooled people in to thinking it was real artists like Drake.
This is so spot on. It's a formula that I am sure AI has already picked up on, or will very soon. It will be interesting to see to what an extent (or, rather, how successfully) it can replicate it. That could be one way of inferring how much of Max's "secret" is pure formula and how much comes from instinct.
From my article on industrial songwriting: "Martin is just the most successful of a small “club” of eight professional songwriters who have been the principle or sole writers of thousands of Billboard hits, including over 100 #1s. The others are Tor Erik Hermansen and Mikkel Storleer Eriksen (two Swedes who work as a team), Ester Dean, Bonnie McKee, Lukasz Gottwald, Karl Johan Schuster, and Benjamin Levin." They all deny using a "formula", but there are nevertheless techniques they all have in common. If you want more on this, my original article is here: https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/the-songwriters-who-ate-america-part It's a short piece and just scratches the surface but there are also references if you want to dive deeper.
If this is your "less wonderful" reply, I can't even begin to imagine how wonderful the one you lost must have been! Always mesmerised by the huge amount of data (and details!) that you store in your memory banks. Truly impressive.
Yes, and as Charles said below, we are all in agreement that Max has a talent of sorts (regardless of our attitude towards his material) (I, for one, enjoy some of the tracks, when sung by certain artists... certain others, less so, purely because I don't like them as singers, but then again I admit I am heavily biased towards vocals).
I knew Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" thanks to my dad (it's one of his favourite records), but I'll need to familiarise/reacquaint myself with the Todd Rundgren one you mention.
Interesting that you mention 1973 as I have been planning for a while to write a post on 1973 albums that hold special meaning to me. As you are well aware, my existence wasn't even a project in 1973 :) so I WILL certainly come to you for help as you can describe that era a lot better than I ever could. I think it would be a cool way of collaborating!
We're on the same track, Andy! Just this past week, I Googled 1973 albums, 'cause I KNOW it's the 50th anniversary of so many albums I loved back in my senior year of high school!
And, I won't, myself (necessarily) want to write about each one, but would certainly love to drop a personal memory in someone else's efforts! From my point of view, there are just so many!!! So, by all means, Andy, give a brotha a holla, yo!😉✊
BTW, in that Todd album ("A Wizard"), there was an entry blank. Everyone who sent one in would get their name on the next Todd album, 1974's "Todd" 2-LP set!
A massive poster of Todd was included in that album, and in tiny print, arranged in such a way, that, when held back a few feet, was a B&W replica of the cover shot, MADE UP OF EVERYONE'S NAME WHO SENT IN THE CARD!!! I was near his right ear, as I recall, near a hair strand that was sort of sticking out!
‘Ain’t no sunshine’ by Bill Withers. No intro. First line is the hook (so you have hook by 6 seconds), third line is also the hook. First verse, all the hooks, done and dusted by 25 seconds. Genius.
Somebody dropped the sitcom ball there, fo sho! Withers' story is a fun look at the (to me) baseball-like free agent pick-up, as a big label lies in wait for a great artist's contract to come up (for renewal!) with a smaller one to pounce...witness Bill's hopping from tiny Sussex Records in '75....it folded. Columbia was there to swoop him up!
Sussex doesn't fold, and he stays there, do we ever hear of Withers after that, or get a "Lovely Day" (or the 1980 "Just the Two of Us" with Grover Washington, Jr.)?
Good point! You and others have talked about how many records never even made it out of the packaging at radio stations back in the day (or maybe still..).
Thank you, Michael....but, check THIS out....something that, from out of left field, completely, whatever was going on behind the scenes at Columbia....here's how we got some of Bill's best work, with his collabs (from his Wiki):
"Due to problems with Columbia and being unable to get songs approved for his album, he decided to focus on joint projects from 1977 to 1985, including "Just the Two of Us," with jazz saxophonist Grover Washington Jr., which was released during June 1980. The song won the Grammy Award for Best R&B Song. Withers next released "Soul Shadows" with the Crusaders, and "In the Name of Love" with Ralph MacDonald, the latter being nominated for a Grammy for vocal performance."
Hmmm - did any of the “disapproved” songs ever get released? Maybe a posthumous album or something? Or are there “tapes”, maybe digitized by now, just lying around somewhere?
I read somewhere a song “needs” to have the hook repeated every seven seconds or so. Not sure I agree with that time frame, but I get the idea. OTOH, Bill Withers could probably have pulled off a song that was nothing but hook and it would have hit.
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I KNOW! Hey...
The hook "repeated every seven seconds" line was likely conceived by a Madison Avenue type. Remember how many hit songwriters came from, moonlighted, or ended up in, the commercial jingle trade. Can you say "Barry Manilow"? The whole point of an ad jingle is to implant itself in the listeners' brains so that it would reverberate in the grocery store aisles....or, in the McDonald's drive-thru!
When I taught 4th grade math a dozen years ago, and sensed my audience was flagging, all I had to do was "da-da-da-da-DAHHH" the McDonald's jingle, they'd all go "I'm lovin' it!" and we'd all be back to business! Was really quite amazing to witness!
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, and my own experiential prejudices - 15-30 second intros grab me - I can live with shorter, but I want the intro to establish something - harmonies, vibe, groove, whatever. Past 30 seconds just misses the point of an intro IMHO. That’s what instrumental breaks/interludes are for, again just my opinion - get to the vocals, then let the guitarist/drummer/keyboardist/brass/orchestra whatever have the spotlight for a bit - thrill me even, then get on with it!
I can't disagree, Michael, and I think you'll find lots of folks who concur. But, as with everything else, it depends on the song. Hard to begrudge John & Paul, for instance, for no intro to "Help!," but too many pop songs do seem to indulge in far too long an intro, which usually finds itself edited down from the album to make for a shorter single release!
I'm with you there. Music is like sex: Foreplay heightens the experience. Wham-bam is occasionally fun but taking ones time leads to a more memorable experience. At least that's how I rationalize my love of classical music and progressive metal.
And, therein lies the magic of music, for one to enjoy one moment, "Blitzkrieg Bop," and two minutes later (and, certainly no more, knowing The Ramones!!), put "Supper's Ready" by Genesis on the 'table for that magical, mystical 20-minute ride! Apt analogy, Charles.
I might suggest an accompanying glass o' vino, and maybe a little latex to cover your pick. Even the most careful guitarists, certainly when playing live, practice safe sets.
Jun 17, 2023·edited Jun 17, 2023Liked by Brad Kyle
Thanks Brad for posting these. Huge amount to unpack, but to me the obvious thing is that these analyses miss whole categories of music which were once dominant forms of music, and which are still important to a lot of people (classical, jazz, blues, progressive rock, to name a few). Just looking at the history of American pop, the shortening of the intros is only one part of an overall flattening of songwriting innovation. See my article on this topic:
Am I biased? Yes. I listen to classical music and jazz, and love blues and progressive metal. You won't find any short intros there. To answer your questions 3 and 4: Yes, audiences appear to be content, not only with shorter intros, but with a steady diet of similar-sounding songs. (Obviously this does not apply to fans of modern classical, jazz, or progressive rock). And yes, if the 7-second rule had been in effect, you can erase Tina Turner, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Prince and David Bowie. Think about the magnitude of what is lost.
Hey Brad, I hope you don’t mind me doing this, and don’t see it a shameless self-indulgent self-promotion, but here are few links to articles on my substack, The Song’s the Thing!
I wrote a short series of articles this time last year, which basically covers a lot included in your topic thread. Everything from art-for-art’s sake trobadourism, through to being a jobbing commercial songwriter, with some history thrown in, and a whole section about popular song forms and the key ingredients / building blocks of a song. It was one of my first attempts at writing on substack, so it may now seem a bit chaotic, but it is what it is. It’s free, no paywall. I hope it’s useful. I think it’s relevant, otherwise, honestly, I would not include it here on your thread.
You and your links are welcome here anytime, Nic! And, I can tell, already, they're not only relevant, but will be enjoyable for our FR&B readers (who may want to consider subscribing, as well!), many of whom are professional songwriters! Thank you! I'm on my way to go read them now!
That's a great point, Elijah....the Brown reference. I never knew that. Nor, did I ever imagine his well-known "take 'em to the bridge" had nothing whatsoever to do with an over-water span of any sort!
Your second paragraph (and the reason I hold songwriters....MUSIC writers in such high regard, to the point of actual reverence).....you're right of course, about music being a marketable product, BUT....of all the arts, music (not lyrics, mind you!) is the only artform that needs no medium on/in which to express it. Melodies are created in your head (the "mystical" part which astounds me....a talent I do not have, lamentably!!), and they never have to leave!!!
Painter? You have to leave something on the canvas, or no one can see your gift of art. Writer? Sorry....a pen or an Underwood needs to come into play, or your page remains blank.
Sure, write a lead sheet if you'd like. Sure, run a tape recorder....sure, pluck it out on a guitar. But, it never has to leave the place in which it was created for it to have merit, be beautiful, and be a pure expression of your natural talent!
"Pop Music is Dance Music" reminds me of a hilarious observation by a Black college classmate of mine. We were at a big party, and he turned to us and said "Did you ever notice that when the good stuff is playing, all the Black folks are dancing, and when the stuff you can't dance to is playing, we sit down and the white folks get up and dance?"
Jun 17, 2023·edited Jun 17, 2023Liked by Brad Kyle
Well, I often hesitate to tell stories like this because sometimes people get triggered. Glad you enjoyed it. And yes, people always put other people in boxes, mostly out of ignorance. I'm part Chinese and I've had people ask if I wear a Kimono at home.
A very well-known dance music producer summarised this topic to me in one short sentence. "There's 'handbag' music, and there's 'bloke' music, handbag music sells, bloke music doesn't." He went on to explain that 'handbag' music is the music that makes ladies spontaneously put their handbags down on the dance floor in a big pile, and then dance all night to. Bloke music is music that men sit and analyse, dissecting the riffs, the band history, working out which synth was used for the solo, which recording studio was used, which producer, etc etc etc... Tin Pan Alley songwriters also knew all this, the had the old grey whistle test. Not the BBC UK show, the actual test, there was a test called the old grey whistle test for predicting if a song would be hit or miss.
Very cool, Nic....you might know me well enough to imagine I might ask you just who this insightful and colorful "very well-known dance music producer" was/is that said these wonderfully eccentric and very true words! Inquiring minds want to know (this one does, anyway)!!😁👍🎶❕
Jun 17, 2023·edited Jun 17, 2023Liked by Brad Kyle
Rusty Egan.
BTW I read the article, and watched the video. Very good, great insights. I’ve got a lot to say. Don’t really know where to start, still processing.
I also agree with Andres, what he says about relatable and innovation. Hits tend to fit the zeitgeist. Something fresh, new and innovative gains attention - think punk rock - though many would say it was not innovative, more a backwards step, but I was there and it felt intoxicatingly innovative!
One thing I’ve noticed on this topic, and I think it relates to trends, is that I can think of many exceptions to every rule. Meaning every time I think I’ve pinned something down, and can explain it, I then think of a notable exception... I’m just not sure that you can pin culture down with data, there’s so many variables! Having said that I love the insights that the data provides and it’s precision, fascinating.
I try to give one example, however I feel myself getting into deep waters, because these topics are worthy of a book, not tiny chat posts...
Cold Play’s second album, Rush of Blood... totally uncommercial, not a pop single on it, brilliant use of shifting minor keys, in particular Chris Martin’s use of chord voicings that create marvellous major/minor tonal ambiguity. In principle, for a young band, this dark almost slitzy wristy album on the face of it, would appear to be commercial suicide, but it put them on the map and set the bands career up. They are now known both for their stadium anthems and their melancholy heartbreaks. So they kinda started their careers in reverse, melancholy album first, pop anthems later... doesn’t seem to fit the data set idea…
Then there’s Bob Dylan. I’m surprised he’s not up there with Lennon and McCartney (and Max Martin) when it comes to hits... but when I thought about that, sure he’s one of the most prolific songwriters / performers ever, but apart from one or two songs (lay lady lay, knockin’ on heaven’s door) I can’t think of any that are even close to commercial, I don’t think Dylan has a commercial bone in his body... doesn’t seem to fit the data set idea…
What I will say, and probably that’s enough, I’ve ended up unraveling here a bit 😂 is that I’ve noticed that I personally have gone backward and forwards from being a song person to an album person back to being a song person. I've never been an artist person, a fan, it's about songs for me.
Meaning quite often I’d like one song by an artist, and nothing else, try as I may, I can’t seem to find another song of theirs that sticks on my play list... Jolene by Dolly Parton is a prime example, I can’t name another Dolly song off the top of my head, but I love Jolene (and I think Miley Cyrus does it better, just saying).
Then there is the now lost new album ritual, and I really miss this. Buying a long awaited new album release, getting it home, inviting some friends over, making a spliff, getting some cold beers, cracking the cellophane wrapper on the album, putting it on the turntable for side A track 1, and immersing for half an hour or so into a new unheard album, passing the cover and the spliff and reading the liner notes. Then a quick break, another beer, side two, then talking through first impressions. There was something tactile about it all, you had something physical in your hands, something substantial, 12” vinyl, and there were the moving parts. of the turntable. I loved all that. Never happens anymore. Later, quite often this ritual would happen in the car, on a long drive with new CDs... this still happens, I guess, however now its MP3s on an SD card
Quite often this was how I used to get to know new music, listening with my friends to their new albums, of bands I didn’t think to buy. Same with mixtapes, friends or DJs we knew giving us a cassette with their favourite music of the moment, or a compilation in a particular style. I guess this is a precursor to curated lists online and music influencers.
Anyway, this was a great ritual. Probably I’m just being nostalgic, but now it all seems to happen on line, alone, and involves a lot of screen staring and scrolling... not the same in the slightest...
Hardly ever do I look at a new artist's (new to me) albums, I listen to see if a song grabs me, and if one does I bookmark it, I guess I'm back to collecting songs, not an artist's repertoire or awaiting their new album.
Not sure if that's just me, or a sign of the times?
Wow, Rusty Egan! Thanks for that disclosure, Nic! A former Rich Kid--I had their '78 "Ghosts" UK import album!
Your first point....punk rock: Certainly innovative for what it did in its period in time, and yes, with a foot well-placed in the past. Until (as with most/all new trends and sub-genres, the money-makers come in and dilute and distill what had been great and new (see disco, post-'77, and punk, post-'78)!
I read every word, Nic, and hope everyone does! I love your pulling out of Coldplay and Dylan....I only have ever heard just a couple Coldplay songs, but loved one so much, I learned it and sung it in karaoke ("Viva la Vida")! But, just that song alone makes me realize they're a next-level band on the order of a generational U2-like "serious" and substantive rock band.
Artists like Dylan and (one of his biggest fans) Patti Smith, being poets by nature first, and (possibly reluctant) pop songwriters, second, hits not only weren't in their career cards by nature, but nowhere in their compositional sites.
As a fellow song-lover (and appreciator of the songwriting art), I agree with your Dolly assessment. Mad props, too, for her "following the recipe given her," I'm guessing, for her "9 to 5" theme. Without researching, I'm guessing she wrote it for the movie. Writing to assignment (when you're used to writing for your own performance and recordings) has to be a rare talent by itself!
And, your gleefully evocative first-listening experiences are classic! You're right....I think we all miss those times! Idea for a future thread for ya, Nic.....ask folks to drop in their back-in-the-day favorite album-listening/first listening experiences! Ooh, the stories you'd get! I know I've got a couple faves!😁👍🎶
Thanks for the share, Brad. I think Martin is like any other songwriter in that he has his own tastes. Many of those happen to line up with commercial appeal but I don’t think it’s much different in the abstract from the Motown machine decades ago.
Bringing up Motown raises the notion of "assembly line" pop, a "charge" that's been leveled before, in several directions (Spector's girl groups, any late '60s bubblegum team, not excluding the Wes Farrell/Partridge camp, and the Kasenetz/Katz cabal, the '70s UK Chinn & Chapman, Phil Wainman, et al), and others (disco had its share of assembly line writers, too)!
It may be tough to differentiate between the analog $ motivations pre-PC/pre-streaming and the quite obvious, in-your-face numbers, algorithms, and time motivations now...all of which makes it easy to point accusatory (however unfair they may be) fingers in the direction of a Martin, say, as exploiting the biz model of streaming for monetary gain.
But, that's why we're here! Next?🎶
I plead guilty to making that charge, and since Chris is on this thread, I also would say data support the charge. "Intro-shortening" strikes me as the bluntest of the instruments in Max Martin's arsenal, but not the only one. And Martin is one of eight or nine pure songwriters who have mastered a set of algorithms for writing hits. Whether those hits will be remembered in another generation is another question. See my article on this topic (Brad, I had been hoping you would dig into it and comment but I don't think you ever did) https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/the-songwriters-who-ate-america-part
Thanks, Charles....I'll make sure I check out that article....FR&B readers can feel free to click on it and all things, Zapatos Jam-jacent! I will say, Charles, that despite my initial 😱at hearing and reading Chris's intro/timing/algo data re: Martin, I need to add my plaudits to Max for his surveying the delivery-system landscape (as it sits today....or 2 decades ago!), and simply using his talent within its confines...
Or, more to other point, it's newly-found freedom....or, at least, the fact that it's now possible (as Chris has so deftly and fascinatingly found) to identify and quantify a piece of the songwriting/recording/monetizing of "the beast" we were really never privy to before.
So, now....artists like Martin (and others, as you mentioned) can tailor his craft to maximize listenability; and, that's OK. If radio (and now, the 'net) has taught us anything, it's that listenability can translate to airplay/streams, and in turn, that usually results in profits...and, that's OK, too. Hey, I'm softening! Look at me!😁👍Nice add, Charles! Now, to your earlier article!
Hey Brad, you make a valid point--it's no different than any market. The producer can try to give the customer what the data says the customer wants. The troubling thing is that producers have more agency than they want to admit. Kraft dedicated six decades to conditioning Americans to like uniform, processed, bland food. Our ancestors who came over from the Old World didn't eat that way--it was invented, and then marketed aggressively, and actually changed peoples' tastes. Now we learn it's unhealthy. It turns out that, like Martinized songwriting, junk food is addictive. So the fact that people compulsively consume it has been decoupled from whether or not it's actually good. The formula is so effective that the door is now open to AI to replace even the Max Martins of the world.
Bingo! Great analogy, with food in general, but the famous blue box that befriended so many college freshmen for decades! We hope Max and his cohorts of the past couple decades have been saving their pre-AI money!
Hey. I skimmed the article. I hope to read it properly later/over the weekend. Very interesting. I like the topic. However my initial feeling (I still need to process this so I may change my mind after reading properly) is that 'pop' music has always been driven by at least two fundamental underlying factors (at least two!). They are commerce. And technology. And both have shaped 'pop' music for decades. So this is nothing new, Spotify is both combined, technology and commerce all in one. And there has always been a cultural pushback against commercial pop music (that's why the Indie labels originally appeared). To give just one (of many examples)... a pop song in the 50s and 60s (and on into the 70s and 80s) had to be 3 minutes (maybe 3.30 longest, but better 2.30) because you could not realistically get a longer song on to one side of a 7 inch vinyl 45 rpm record and maintain the audio quality. There was no other reason for a pop song always to be 3 minutes, it was due to the limits of the technology of the time. And of course also due to pop radio DJs - you needed a short, powerful intro so that your song stood a chance to get play listed, and they would fade songs after about 2.30-3.00 minutes anyway. So record companies would push artists to use arrangements that fit into this format... a short intro but long enough for a DJ to talk over, get to the first chorus ASAP to plug the hook, the earworm, keep long solos for album tracks, etc, etc... And of course there was always the counter culture to all of this homogenised pap - think ProgRock in the late 60s and 70s, with meandering arrangements and vastly long solos...
Good points all, Nic! Thanks! You're right about the vinyl limits of a single, but, of course, radio programmers wanted to cram in as many songs as possible in any given day-part to maximize ad time, hence the desire for acts to trim their songs (and record companies and producers wanting to "fudge" the timing they'd print on the labels to "work around" those limits)....and, that's when your mention of the jocks, fading early anyway, comes in!!
I guess I see today's dilemma a little (a lot?) more alluring to songwriters to "wrench" their art to desperately squeeze their song to meet the streaming "demands," just so they can affect a payday.
The only art-altering that may have gone on back in the day was simply time-related, which all could be forced anyway, as I mentioned before (by the jock, the producer, or anyone wanting to turn a "3:45" into a "2:55" just by what they typed on the label)!
Holla back, Nic, if you glean more after reading the article more fully!
Very interesting discussion. I still need to read the article and watch the video, but as a preliminary comment, I think the times influence the hits as much as the hits influence the times.
If you analyse the biggest hits in the US in the last, say, six or seven decades, you can roughly outline certain patterns, which are distinctive to each particular moment in time. One characteristic I think they all share, regardless of the decade, is that major hits tend to be both innovative and relatable. The average consumer needs relatability (we all know how powerful the influence of certain processes such as identification can be, not just in music -- e.g. advertising, film, etc.). But the biggest hits always manage to bring something else (in the past it used to be something “from the future”, or at least, from the future collective masses imagined). Then it was the retro element: bringing something from the past. I feel nowadays it shifts back and forth. In sum, what pulls people the most seems to be an improved/embellished/reimagined version of themselves.
That, to me, is key. Then, on top of that, there are of course tendencies or trends (the magic of 3 minute long hits, which duration now seems to have become shorter courtesy of narrower attention spans courtesy of social media platforms). Of course all that has a huge influence. But I insist that, to me, at least, the basic ingredients are relatability with a pinch of innovation.
I think you are right about the emphasis on "relatability" but it's a sad commentary on our culture. That emphasis is a modern tic. Through most of human history, art was not premised on relatability, but on beauty and awe. In much of the world, it still is. Only in America, which is clearly the most spoiled and narcissistic society in the world, does so much hang on "relatability". As for the 3 minute rule, I don't get it. That rules out most great music, and I guess that is why classical music is dying in America. Interestingly, though, a lot of ski-lift operators keep classic 60s rock playing all day, and they are all 20-somethings. So there is hope.
I agree to some extent that the issue with relatability seems to be a feature of consumerist societies where art is treated as another commodity. I agree that most great songs exceed 3 minutes but hits are not necessarily great songs. To become a hit, a song needs to resonate with the masses, and most people lack the sensitivity/technical knowledge/depth of thought to appreciate, say, a 10-minute-long progressive rock piece. Let alone classical music. It is beyond many people’s scope of comprehension, ability or interest. I sometimes get frustrated that some songs I really love never enjoyed any kind of success. But then I imagine how many people would struggle to truly appreciate them or understand them, and I’m glad they are unaware of them, so I don’t have to get angry or frustrated 😅
Highly sophisticated art, in whatever form, is almost always at odds with industrialised music for the masses. Truly great stuff (in life as in music) rarely becomes mainstream.
All wonderfully said, Andy! My favorites: "Hits are not necessarily great songs" and "Truly great stuff (in life as in music) rarely becomes mainstream"!
You've put in more elegant terms what I was trying to get at, so I guess we are in violent agreement! I've also enjoyed my share of 3-minute hits (ABBA, anyone?) but any time I try to defend deeper music, I get slammed for being a snob. Can't win!
I think you may have said first what I was praising Andy for, Charles! I've been reading some of these woefully out of order! I've been stunned and humbled by the wonderful number of responses (and the thoughtful and creative comments!), and didn't get to them until after they sort of piled up!
There's more than enough credit for all, though! I think we've all experienced the "sugar high" of a well-written radio pop song (speaking of ABBA, whom I've loved, have you heard "Waterloo"?...they're so much more than their disco hits!), but we've also enjoyed digging into the filet mignon (that doesn't personally resonate....here, lemme try "all-you-can-eat-shrimp"----there, much better!) of a Pink Floyd album, or a Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" album.
Ex: Raspberries "Go All the Way" and Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" both came out in 1972. I loved and listened, a LOT, to both at the time. The performances, yes, but they can't perform what hasn't been written, so the common thread for both is incredible songwriting.
Disclosing the first, back in the day (I was a high school junior), might've resulted in being called a slave to the radio; the latter, a pretentious poser! We like what we like...and, that's OK, and always has been!🎶🌟😁👍
Interesting that you both mention ABBA, because apparently (I read this very recently), one of Max Martin's biggest influences was ABBA. Predictably so, being a Swedish hitmaker. Another thing I learned was that Max and his team, at least in the early stages, would write the song(s), play all the instruments, record most of it, reach several stages of production, and only then would he/they bring the singer to the studio. In other words, he worked more like the leader of a band with alternating singers. At least that was the case with Britney Spears (I highly doubt it was/is the case with other artists that get heavily invested in their own songwriting, e.g. Adele).
I mentioned this elsewhere here, Andy, but one reason Max is so invested in his productions (which I didn't know, so thanks for that news....another piece of the puzzle) is that he was a lead singer of a rock band in the '80s, It's Alive!, with two albums (exclamation theirs). So, he's more than just a "behind-the-scenes" guy....it's official....I'm a fan!
Clearly, Martin is so much more than a johnny-come-lately hack JUST taking advantage of today's new algo/streaming jungle. He's a supremely talented all-around musician who knows his way around a lead sheet, and doesn't mind "getting his hands dirty" helping artists bring his songs to life, from studio to the top o' the charts!
What an eye-opening thread, with wonderfully thoughtful comments throughout, from everybody!
Thank you, Chris, for the original data and article, and your help in "birthing" this thread! And, thank you, everyone, for participating! (I know I should've done this at the end, but there may be more contributions, and this would've then ceased being at the end)!😁👍
Yes indeed we are (and thanks for what you said about "elegant terms" :)). Oh absolutely, I love a hit too, and I also enjoy deeper/more elaborate stuff (particularly when it has a soulful vibe). Some people consume music for entertainment purposes only, it's a means to an end, and that's okay. For others like us and many others, music is not just a means AND an end: it's our reason for existence.
All good thoughts, Andy....your last paragraph got me thinking about why we call radio (and what it plays) "pop" music....short for "popular." Radio was first, of course, and had the same goals as TV, when it debuted (U.S.) in the late '40s: To make $ thru advertising local (at first) commercial concerns (furniture store, plumber, etc).
How do they reel in an audience to show a local biz their ads will have some eyes to see them? Put forth content that will draw and keep an audience. No one's going to tune into a radio station (or, later, a TV station) to see nothing but ads! But, create content to KEEP an audience, and they'll be there for when Ed's Office Supply airs their ad!
None of that is news, but often "the general public" forgets the reason they watch (or listen)....it's to watch or listen to the ads! That's how everyone makes money! The songs, the sitcoms, etc...that's all incidental, and nowhere close to what the programmers WANT to fill the airwaves with, but they're left with no choice if they want to attract ad buyers!
That's what got me so "huh?! Say what?!" about the intentionality of Martin so purposefully crafting songs to maximize profit, and not because his art and talent drew him to the lead sheet. It's like telling Picasso that the medium (in his case, the canvas maker) will pay him more if he uses fewer brush strokes! Would the art world have tolerated such blatant and crass bowing to the dollar over the honest expression of human talent?
I agree with most of your comment but have some reservations with your last paragraph. I don’t think the dichotomy you mention (art versus greed) applies in all cases. True, some artists make a point of being authentic, “not selling themselves” (whatever that means) and always prioritising their artistic expression over any commercial intention, which they quickly dismiss as greed. Call me sceptical or cynical but I’m not convinced what they say is entirely true. All artists want recognition. At some point, though, many realise that they have to choose between being really successful and doing what they really love.
In Max Martin’s case, he gets so heavily invested in the creation, production and even post-production of his songs that it can’t be just for the money. The guy is clearly passionate. You don’t work crazy hours on something artistic/creative just for the money (regardless of our own particular taste/attitude towards the songs, they still constitute an artistic project). A good listener can tell and detect (again, objectively speaking) whether there’s passion or fakery behind any given creation.
In sum, I don’t think all artists are either frustrated hippies or filthy capitalists. I think the vast majority, especially in pop, have found a compromise between what they love most and what they are best at selling, and they have worked hard to hone their skills in that specific role so they can keep growing. As always, humans beings are so psychologically complex that I try to stay away from stereotypes whenever possible.
I wrote you a wonderful reply, Andy, but managed to unwittingly delete it! Duh. I'll try to encapsulate: You're right, and I'm definitely softening in my initial knee-jerk reaction of cynicism and nefarious advantage-taking I hastily ascribed to Martin.
One of his talents has to be (along with a prodigious songwriting talent) "marrying" his gift to the present-day delivery system, a talent not to be diminished or overlooked! All artists/songwriters have used whatever limitations or availabilities extant in that era's music delivery system.
I mean, look at vinyl (I know who I'm talking to!!!😉https://vinylroom.substack.com/) songwriters/artists tried to stay within the confines of the 7" 45rpm single...they not only were constrained by the simple size of that medium, but gently fitting their art onto that PVC slab increased their chances of gaining airplay (as has been mentioned elsewhere here).
As for the LP, look no further than Jethro Tull's early '70s "Thick as a Brick" and "A Passion Play," each one song (according to composer, Ian Anderson), divided (if not with silent "banding," than with titles given by Anderson) into sections. Warner Bros. Records (who distributed the band's Chrysalis Records in the U.S.) even created and shipped (to radio) specially-banded promo albums of both LPs, in the hopes SOMEBODY at radio would/could be more likely to play a track or two (even, and especially FM...a single edit or two from each were serviced to AM)!
As for testing the bounds of the LP software of the day, hats off to Todd Rundgren and his 1973 "A Wizard, a True Star" album. Delivered to Warner Bros. (who distributed his Bearsville Records) at just under 56 minutes (nearly double the standard LP length of the day....up to 20 minutes a side), Todd even convinced the label to include a note on the back of the jacket!
To wit (paraphrasing), "The length of this album exceeds normal length, so with a necessarily narrower groove, sound will be diminished. Turn it up!" If you find this album worthy of covering on your "The Vinyl Room," let me know for a possible collab! I was a high school senior at the time, and loved the album........turned up!
Bottom line.......Max Martin is using his talent in the delivery medium of the day, just as all have done in each's respective era! Color me, now, a fan (unless it involves oil paint to any degree)!
I think we are all in agreement that Max (and the others of the Big 8) are to some extent simply working within the rubric of the system. I also agree that the "art vs. greed" dichotomy is not so black and white. I would simply add that Martin et. al have far more agency than they take credit for, and have more influence on the shape of the rubric than they want to admit. They are analogous to drug dealers who sell stuff that is addictive and then throw their hands up and say "I'm just giving people what they want". The scary thing, for them, is that their approach to songwriting has opened the door to their own replacement by AIs.
Well said, Charles.....and, everyone's entries have opened my eyes to realize all but your last sentence...which, of course, is just as true as it is scary!
You want scary, there is already some stuff popping up on streaming that was generated by AI--including some youtube vids that have fooled people in to thinking it was real artists like Drake.
This is so spot on. It's a formula that I am sure AI has already picked up on, or will very soon. It will be interesting to see to what an extent (or, rather, how successfully) it can replicate it. That could be one way of inferring how much of Max's "secret" is pure formula and how much comes from instinct.
From my article on industrial songwriting: "Martin is just the most successful of a small “club” of eight professional songwriters who have been the principle or sole writers of thousands of Billboard hits, including over 100 #1s. The others are Tor Erik Hermansen and Mikkel Storleer Eriksen (two Swedes who work as a team), Ester Dean, Bonnie McKee, Lukasz Gottwald, Karl Johan Schuster, and Benjamin Levin." They all deny using a "formula", but there are nevertheless techniques they all have in common. If you want more on this, my original article is here: https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/the-songwriters-who-ate-america-part It's a short piece and just scratches the surface but there are also references if you want to dive deeper.
If this is your "less wonderful" reply, I can't even begin to imagine how wonderful the one you lost must have been! Always mesmerised by the huge amount of data (and details!) that you store in your memory banks. Truly impressive.
Yes, and as Charles said below, we are all in agreement that Max has a talent of sorts (regardless of our attitude towards his material) (I, for one, enjoy some of the tracks, when sung by certain artists... certain others, less so, purely because I don't like them as singers, but then again I admit I am heavily biased towards vocals).
I knew Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" thanks to my dad (it's one of his favourite records), but I'll need to familiarise/reacquaint myself with the Todd Rundgren one you mention.
Interesting that you mention 1973 as I have been planning for a while to write a post on 1973 albums that hold special meaning to me. As you are well aware, my existence wasn't even a project in 1973 :) so I WILL certainly come to you for help as you can describe that era a lot better than I ever could. I think it would be a cool way of collaborating!
We're on the same track, Andy! Just this past week, I Googled 1973 albums, 'cause I KNOW it's the 50th anniversary of so many albums I loved back in my senior year of high school!
And, I won't, myself (necessarily) want to write about each one, but would certainly love to drop a personal memory in someone else's efforts! From my point of view, there are just so many!!! So, by all means, Andy, give a brotha a holla, yo!😉✊
BTW, in that Todd album ("A Wizard"), there was an entry blank. Everyone who sent one in would get their name on the next Todd album, 1974's "Todd" 2-LP set!
A massive poster of Todd was included in that album, and in tiny print, arranged in such a way, that, when held back a few feet, was a B&W replica of the cover shot, MADE UP OF EVERYONE'S NAME WHO SENT IN THE CARD!!! I was near his right ear, as I recall, near a hair strand that was sort of sticking out!
That is sooo cool! So jealous you got to live through that era and experience all that magic!
‘Ain’t no sunshine’ by Bill Withers. No intro. First line is the hook (so you have hook by 6 seconds), third line is also the hook. First verse, all the hooks, done and dusted by 25 seconds. Genius.
And, I can't help but be drawn in, also, by his gorgeous "Lovely Day." That last note?...please!
That’s some lung power!! How did that song not end up being the theme for a sitcom?
Somebody dropped the sitcom ball there, fo sho! Withers' story is a fun look at the (to me) baseball-like free agent pick-up, as a big label lies in wait for a great artist's contract to come up (for renewal!) with a smaller one to pounce...witness Bill's hopping from tiny Sussex Records in '75....it folded. Columbia was there to swoop him up!
Sussex doesn't fold, and he stays there, do we ever hear of Withers after that, or get a "Lovely Day" (or the 1980 "Just the Two of Us" with Grover Washington, Jr.)?
Good point! You and others have talked about how many records never even made it out of the packaging at radio stations back in the day (or maybe still..).
But that’s why we read you, Brad!
Thank you, Michael....but, check THIS out....something that, from out of left field, completely, whatever was going on behind the scenes at Columbia....here's how we got some of Bill's best work, with his collabs (from his Wiki):
"Due to problems with Columbia and being unable to get songs approved for his album, he decided to focus on joint projects from 1977 to 1985, including "Just the Two of Us," with jazz saxophonist Grover Washington Jr., which was released during June 1980. The song won the Grammy Award for Best R&B Song. Withers next released "Soul Shadows" with the Crusaders, and "In the Name of Love" with Ralph MacDonald, the latter being nominated for a Grammy for vocal performance."
Hmmm - did any of the “disapproved” songs ever get released? Maybe a posthumous album or something? Or are there “tapes”, maybe digitized by now, just lying around somewhere?
I read somewhere a song “needs” to have the hook repeated every seven seconds or so. Not sure I agree with that time frame, but I get the idea. OTOH, Bill Withers could probably have pulled off a song that was nothing but hook and it would have hit.
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I KNOW! Hey...
The hook "repeated every seven seconds" line was likely conceived by a Madison Avenue type. Remember how many hit songwriters came from, moonlighted, or ended up in, the commercial jingle trade. Can you say "Barry Manilow"? The whole point of an ad jingle is to implant itself in the listeners' brains so that it would reverberate in the grocery store aisles....or, in the McDonald's drive-thru!
When I taught 4th grade math a dozen years ago, and sensed my audience was flagging, all I had to do was "da-da-da-da-DAHHH" the McDonald's jingle, they'd all go "I'm lovin' it!" and we'd all be back to business! Was really quite amazing to witness!
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, and my own experiential prejudices - 15-30 second intros grab me - I can live with shorter, but I want the intro to establish something - harmonies, vibe, groove, whatever. Past 30 seconds just misses the point of an intro IMHO. That’s what instrumental breaks/interludes are for, again just my opinion - get to the vocals, then let the guitarist/drummer/keyboardist/brass/orchestra whatever have the spotlight for a bit - thrill me even, then get on with it!
I can't disagree, Michael, and I think you'll find lots of folks who concur. But, as with everything else, it depends on the song. Hard to begrudge John & Paul, for instance, for no intro to "Help!," but too many pop songs do seem to indulge in far too long an intro, which usually finds itself edited down from the album to make for a shorter single release!
Maybe “Help!” was the intro...
Nice.📻🎶👍
I think I first heard the term “orchestral sneeze” in a music theory class. Maybe it was their version of that...
I'm with you there. Music is like sex: Foreplay heightens the experience. Wham-bam is occasionally fun but taking ones time leads to a more memorable experience. At least that's how I rationalize my love of classical music and progressive metal.
And, therein lies the magic of music, for one to enjoy one moment, "Blitzkrieg Bop," and two minutes later (and, certainly no more, knowing The Ramones!!), put "Supper's Ready" by Genesis on the 'table for that magical, mystical 20-minute ride! Apt analogy, Charles.
I may rethink my approach to songwriting…..
I might suggest an accompanying glass o' vino, and maybe a little latex to cover your pick. Even the most careful guitarists, certainly when playing live, practice safe sets.
https://www.fuelrocks.com/how-to-clip-guitar-strings
Well, THAT looks painful!
No. No no no. Aargh.
Ba Da Boom
Thank you.....I'll be here all week.......try the veal.🎤😂.🍖? No....the veal!
And tip your waitress!! “Buy Microsoft!”
Thanks Brad for posting these. Huge amount to unpack, but to me the obvious thing is that these analyses miss whole categories of music which were once dominant forms of music, and which are still important to a lot of people (classical, jazz, blues, progressive rock, to name a few). Just looking at the history of American pop, the shortening of the intros is only one part of an overall flattening of songwriting innovation. See my article on this topic:
https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/the-songwriters-who-ate-america-part
Am I biased? Yes. I listen to classical music and jazz, and love blues and progressive metal. You won't find any short intros there. To answer your questions 3 and 4: Yes, audiences appear to be content, not only with shorter intros, but with a steady diet of similar-sounding songs. (Obviously this does not apply to fans of modern classical, jazz, or progressive rock). And yes, if the 7-second rule had been in effect, you can erase Tina Turner, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Prince and David Bowie. Think about the magnitude of what is lost.
Hey Brad, I hope you don’t mind me doing this, and don’t see it a shameless self-indulgent self-promotion, but here are few links to articles on my substack, The Song’s the Thing!
I wrote a short series of articles this time last year, which basically covers a lot included in your topic thread. Everything from art-for-art’s sake trobadourism, through to being a jobbing commercial songwriter, with some history thrown in, and a whole section about popular song forms and the key ingredients / building blocks of a song. It was one of my first attempts at writing on substack, so it may now seem a bit chaotic, but it is what it is. It’s free, no paywall. I hope it’s useful. I think it’s relevant, otherwise, honestly, I would not include it here on your thread.
Part 1
https://nicbriscoe.substack.com/p/songwriting-basics-song-structure
Part 2
https://nicbriscoe.substack.com/p/deacon-blues-obscurity-vs-drive-time
Part 3
https://nicbriscoe.substack.com/p/the-right-path-to-righteousness-and
(Part 3 has a section about popular song forms)
And this, about a chord sequence used for more hits than I can mention…
https://nicbriscoe.substack.com/p/the-rotating-hit-making-chord-progression
You and your links are welcome here anytime, Nic! And, I can tell, already, they're not only relevant, but will be enjoyable for our FR&B readers (who may want to consider subscribing, as well!), many of whom are professional songwriters! Thank you! I'm on my way to go read them now!
Thanks Nic, I hope to get to these today.
That's a great point, Elijah....the Brown reference. I never knew that. Nor, did I ever imagine his well-known "take 'em to the bridge" had nothing whatsoever to do with an over-water span of any sort!
Your second paragraph (and the reason I hold songwriters....MUSIC writers in such high regard, to the point of actual reverence).....you're right of course, about music being a marketable product, BUT....of all the arts, music (not lyrics, mind you!) is the only artform that needs no medium on/in which to express it. Melodies are created in your head (the "mystical" part which astounds me....a talent I do not have, lamentably!!), and they never have to leave!!!
Painter? You have to leave something on the canvas, or no one can see your gift of art. Writer? Sorry....a pen or an Underwood needs to come into play, or your page remains blank.
Sure, write a lead sheet if you'd like. Sure, run a tape recorder....sure, pluck it out on a guitar. But, it never has to leave the place in which it was created for it to have merit, be beautiful, and be a pure expression of your natural talent!
"Pop Music is Dance Music" reminds me of a hilarious observation by a Black college classmate of mine. We were at a big party, and he turned to us and said "Did you ever notice that when the good stuff is playing, all the Black folks are dancing, and when the stuff you can't dance to is playing, we sit down and the white folks get up and dance?"
Was that a topic here?
Well, I often hesitate to tell stories like this because sometimes people get triggered. Glad you enjoyed it. And yes, people always put other people in boxes, mostly out of ignorance. I'm part Chinese and I've had people ask if I wear a Kimono at home.
A very well-known dance music producer summarised this topic to me in one short sentence. "There's 'handbag' music, and there's 'bloke' music, handbag music sells, bloke music doesn't." He went on to explain that 'handbag' music is the music that makes ladies spontaneously put their handbags down on the dance floor in a big pile, and then dance all night to. Bloke music is music that men sit and analyse, dissecting the riffs, the band history, working out which synth was used for the solo, which recording studio was used, which producer, etc etc etc... Tin Pan Alley songwriters also knew all this, the had the old grey whistle test. Not the BBC UK show, the actual test, there was a test called the old grey whistle test for predicting if a song would be hit or miss.
Very cool, Nic....you might know me well enough to imagine I might ask you just who this insightful and colorful "very well-known dance music producer" was/is that said these wonderfully eccentric and very true words! Inquiring minds want to know (this one does, anyway)!!😁👍🎶❕
Rusty Egan.
BTW I read the article, and watched the video. Very good, great insights. I’ve got a lot to say. Don’t really know where to start, still processing.
I also agree with Andres, what he says about relatable and innovation. Hits tend to fit the zeitgeist. Something fresh, new and innovative gains attention - think punk rock - though many would say it was not innovative, more a backwards step, but I was there and it felt intoxicatingly innovative!
One thing I’ve noticed on this topic, and I think it relates to trends, is that I can think of many exceptions to every rule. Meaning every time I think I’ve pinned something down, and can explain it, I then think of a notable exception... I’m just not sure that you can pin culture down with data, there’s so many variables! Having said that I love the insights that the data provides and it’s precision, fascinating.
I try to give one example, however I feel myself getting into deep waters, because these topics are worthy of a book, not tiny chat posts...
Cold Play’s second album, Rush of Blood... totally uncommercial, not a pop single on it, brilliant use of shifting minor keys, in particular Chris Martin’s use of chord voicings that create marvellous major/minor tonal ambiguity. In principle, for a young band, this dark almost slitzy wristy album on the face of it, would appear to be commercial suicide, but it put them on the map and set the bands career up. They are now known both for their stadium anthems and their melancholy heartbreaks. So they kinda started their careers in reverse, melancholy album first, pop anthems later... doesn’t seem to fit the data set idea…
Then there’s Bob Dylan. I’m surprised he’s not up there with Lennon and McCartney (and Max Martin) when it comes to hits... but when I thought about that, sure he’s one of the most prolific songwriters / performers ever, but apart from one or two songs (lay lady lay, knockin’ on heaven’s door) I can’t think of any that are even close to commercial, I don’t think Dylan has a commercial bone in his body... doesn’t seem to fit the data set idea…
What I will say, and probably that’s enough, I’ve ended up unraveling here a bit 😂 is that I’ve noticed that I personally have gone backward and forwards from being a song person to an album person back to being a song person. I've never been an artist person, a fan, it's about songs for me.
Meaning quite often I’d like one song by an artist, and nothing else, try as I may, I can’t seem to find another song of theirs that sticks on my play list... Jolene by Dolly Parton is a prime example, I can’t name another Dolly song off the top of my head, but I love Jolene (and I think Miley Cyrus does it better, just saying).
Then there is the now lost new album ritual, and I really miss this. Buying a long awaited new album release, getting it home, inviting some friends over, making a spliff, getting some cold beers, cracking the cellophane wrapper on the album, putting it on the turntable for side A track 1, and immersing for half an hour or so into a new unheard album, passing the cover and the spliff and reading the liner notes. Then a quick break, another beer, side two, then talking through first impressions. There was something tactile about it all, you had something physical in your hands, something substantial, 12” vinyl, and there were the moving parts. of the turntable. I loved all that. Never happens anymore. Later, quite often this ritual would happen in the car, on a long drive with new CDs... this still happens, I guess, however now its MP3s on an SD card
Quite often this was how I used to get to know new music, listening with my friends to their new albums, of bands I didn’t think to buy. Same with mixtapes, friends or DJs we knew giving us a cassette with their favourite music of the moment, or a compilation in a particular style. I guess this is a precursor to curated lists online and music influencers.
Anyway, this was a great ritual. Probably I’m just being nostalgic, but now it all seems to happen on line, alone, and involves a lot of screen staring and scrolling... not the same in the slightest...
Hardly ever do I look at a new artist's (new to me) albums, I listen to see if a song grabs me, and if one does I bookmark it, I guess I'm back to collecting songs, not an artist's repertoire or awaiting their new album.
Not sure if that's just me, or a sign of the times?
Wow, Rusty Egan! Thanks for that disclosure, Nic! A former Rich Kid--I had their '78 "Ghosts" UK import album!
Your first point....punk rock: Certainly innovative for what it did in its period in time, and yes, with a foot well-placed in the past. Until (as with most/all new trends and sub-genres, the money-makers come in and dilute and distill what had been great and new (see disco, post-'77, and punk, post-'78)!
I read every word, Nic, and hope everyone does! I love your pulling out of Coldplay and Dylan....I only have ever heard just a couple Coldplay songs, but loved one so much, I learned it and sung it in karaoke ("Viva la Vida")! But, just that song alone makes me realize they're a next-level band on the order of a generational U2-like "serious" and substantive rock band.
Artists like Dylan and (one of his biggest fans) Patti Smith, being poets by nature first, and (possibly reluctant) pop songwriters, second, hits not only weren't in their career cards by nature, but nowhere in their compositional sites.
As a fellow song-lover (and appreciator of the songwriting art), I agree with your Dolly assessment. Mad props, too, for her "following the recipe given her," I'm guessing, for her "9 to 5" theme. Without researching, I'm guessing she wrote it for the movie. Writing to assignment (when you're used to writing for your own performance and recordings) has to be a rare talent by itself!
And, your gleefully evocative first-listening experiences are classic! You're right....I think we all miss those times! Idea for a future thread for ya, Nic.....ask folks to drop in their back-in-the-day favorite album-listening/first listening experiences! Ooh, the stories you'd get! I know I've got a couple faves!😁👍🎶
That's too funny!🤣🏡Thanks, Elijah!