A brief convo with guitarist Jimmy Zero in 1977 revealed a surprising influence that mirrors the musical drive of Sire Records' OTHER buzzsaw punkers, The Ramones.
If their 2nd album had gotten a better production, they may have gotten a bit more recognition. Then again, something something about the angel of history. They were probably always only headed for implosion, which endears them to me even more.
Good point, Jamie! So many things can and do go into the mix of why an artist falls or zooms! Production is but one. I had to remind myself who produced "We've Come"--how on earth did Felix Pappalardi get the nod? He produced Cream and was in the kings of thud-rock, Mountain! And, we're surprised he didn't get the mission? Really?!
It's well-known that sessions stopped as the DBs became convinced Felix just didn't get them. WHO THOUGHT HE WOULD IN THE FIRST PLACE? I'm sure that's documented somewhere, and I hope it wasn't Seymour. I think the lads appreciated what Ravan did for them on "Young," and I fully get if her schedule might not have aligned with Album #2.
The apparently-suggested James Williamson (to take over from Felix) sounds inspired on paper, but why did the search end there when JW became unavailable? ....and, to the point of leading them to breaking up? Hell, call ME! I'd have loved to at least have had the opportunity to have them be my first production credit!!
Your last sentence: Great dissection. That would make them the American Sex Pistols, the actual epitome of "punk planned obsolescence." They might even, ultimately, have appreciated that notion, proudly wearing that button! They also may have loved to have kept going. *sigh*
JW might have made those guitars really icy. That's one thing I get from Felix's mix, like a version of that approach—making the snarl of Young, Loud...a bit colder sounding (although it was really about bringing Stiv up in the mix), but JW might have been able to do it in a way that didn't compromise their fury. I never knew that about James Williamson and good lord that could've been amazing. Or all wrong, who knows?
You're right about the sound, but if I grok the Boys' actual concern/complaint about Felix's contributions, it had to do mainly with their charges that he didn't "get" what they were trying to do (in the first place or ultimately), resultant sound notwithstanding.
There's no one on the planet who wouldn't have drooled at the mere mention of the prospect of bringing a former Stooge on to a DB project! Again, somebody (the Boys, Seymour....even Felix....did HE even think he "got" their vision enough to sign on?) had to see the unlikeliness of a "happy marriage" of sound and execution in the studio.
But, good on ya, Jamie, for giving Felix mad props...I'm still hung up on, not so much the sound, but how Felix (with all due respect) came to the project in the first place, especially with the 20-20 hindsight of knowing how the Boys disliked the results, which seems like the thing that hastened their implosion shortly thereafter. Ah, "the land of what might've been"!
As far as proto-punk bands go, The Dead Boys is a real blind spot for me. I need to revisit their stuff; thank you for the reminder. Sound-wise, they're just kind of bad Kiss, but with an attitude... sort of like NY Dolls or MC5, or even Alice Cooper.
The Dead Boys were pretty dang real. Seymour's Sire can hang their hat on that: With the glaring exception of the Tuff Darts, Sire's '76-'78 roster was riddled with the influential, the dedicated, and the forever-remembered as key to "the scene," "the movement," whatever you call it i.e. Talking Heads, Richard Hell, The Rezillos (well, OK), Plastic Bertrand (oops), The Undertones, The Pretenders a hair later...rarely a miss for Stein and Co.
Labels like A&M (with the Police, Joe Jackson, and you could argue The Stranglers) and Chrysalis (Blondie, Billy Idol) seemed to all have elements of exploiting the moment (punk? new wave? A valid argument element). I'M not saying all that, because I realize each has talent and great songs to offer (many I like!)--but, when the history of the moment is written, there will be few who make the final, influential cut.
The spotlight that exposes posers and exploiters is at once blinding as it is revealing. Why didn't Stiv and the lads catch on? A great debate lingers: Lack of Warner Bros. promo? No viable hit single to pitch AM? Too rough for the flaccid Fleetwood Mac-riddled FM? A glutted market for what radio and retail perceived as an insistent and confusing whirlwind of product?
I just finished Greg Graffin's autobiography, so a lot of the "post-punk" (nonsense phrase) era is on my mind. Graffin talks about Todd Rundgren (because of course he does); apparently Bad Religion recorded an album w/Todd in the early 90s, but the book focuses on the earlier era as well, as the "winners" and "losers" were sort of being decided and sorted out.
Graffin definitely implies that the label/promotion has much to do with a band's legacy, and I certainly agree with this. I think you're onto something with WB slacking, but then again, it's tough to figure out where they would have gotten much more love in a weird time in such flux.
I've touched on that dynamic somewhere FR&B. While the move, of Sire, from ABC to Warner Bros. (around '76, after the first 2 Ramones albums were released by ABC, then re-released on and for Warner's catalog) can be seen as nothing but a positive move (with regard to company cache, size, reach, and rep), there was also the very real notion of Warner being far too immersed (and monetarily motivated, granted) to keep massaging the star-making machinery of Fleetwood Macs, et al.
If the marginal acts on the parent company, not to mention affiliates, couldn't somehow manufacture interest or "buzz" on their own product on their own, The Label of The Bunny may not bother to lift a promo finger. And, yes, the late '70s was bizzzzzzy! Disco, Urban Cowboy pop/country fad, punk, the advent of videos (vid-forward artists like Bowie were already making promo vids for record stores in the late '70s, pre-MTV)....I worked in one that played them!...."Boys Keep Swinging" was one! You're right.....who coulda if WB didn't with all that going on?
Hey, thanks for reminding me that they exist! I agree, the choices represent what I see in these bands (or even individual songs) as proto-punk, but it's ephemeral just like punk is. Playlists are really fun to make.
Yay! Let me know if you're interested in old-school punk, thrash, metal, or crust. I've got one for each of those genres, but maybe that's another conversation for another day.
Thanks for the history lesson Brad! I knew the song but not the band...and even still I didn’t put together that this was the sample that the Beasties used in “An Open Letter to NYC” (controversially one of my favorite albums by them.) What a fun ride! Now I also want to check out Andrew’s playlist. Your comments section is always communal and lovely.
Thanks, Jami! Andrew's Playlist is bangin'! Full of ones you'd expect, but some really cool, surprising, and appropriate selections! As I told someone last week about our comment section:
My goal is to "train" FR&B readers to check back often (as well as contribute!)....the comment section is where the action is after the article is posted! In true FRONT ROW & BACKSTAGE tradition, our comment section is our after-party! Welcome past the rope line, everyone!
Happy to provide the space, Amos, and thanks for reading! Not sure how the Mr. and Mrs. raised Stiv and all the little Bators, but I love all the mondegreens (they lived just down the street) that come out of misunderstood lyrics! Goodness knows, I've had my share! I was 11 when I first heard The Beatles' "Paperback Writer" (on car radio at time of release) and thought they were singing about someone aboard a small book flying through the air...a "paperback rider"! I was surprised (and not just a little entertained) when I kept mis-hearing lyrics as I got older!
It’s a shame that major labels suppress the rise of punk and other counterculture genres for formulaic repeats. Detroit is a hotbed of garage bands and punks who continue to be ignored since the ‘70s with Iggy Pop et al. With the exception of the surprise rise of White Stripes and HRH Jack White. To think middle America can’t relate to the wild side is insane-- blue collar, middle America is birthing and rearing these sounds as we speak! What we need is a champion by way of a regional record label to give acts a career ladder (think what Sub Pop did for grunge). I thought Third Man Records was that beacon, but they favor their Nashville presence -- the new Vegas of live music -- with the Detroit scene once again abandoned for shiny, polished machines. Missed opportunities abounding.
I agree! I will give Jack mad props for furthering the vinyl notion....whether acquiring pressing plants or building more, and just being a general rock and vinyl ambassador, however more mired in corporatism he may or may not have become. I've had the pleasure of having one of Jack's Austin-based A&R cats (I'm in N. Austin, as well) as an FR&B subscriber since my 8/21 Substack start (https://substack.com/profile/45893217-mark-chance)!
I'll be around for SX, but I never go (crowds, expense, crowds, traffic, crowds, parking, did I mention crowds?). Holler, though, when you come, and we can get together! You'll have my e-mail shortly, as I'll be subscribing!!
All I really remember about The Dead Boys is that Stiv Bators dated MTV VJ Martha Quinn. I always thought that an odd pairing. And if a top MTV VJ couldn't get The Dead Boys more popularity, it wasn't gonna happen! Isn't Martha who the song "The Mighty Quinn" is about?:)
Didn't know about Stiv'n'Martha, but the DBs were long-split up before the dawn of MTV. They broke up by 1980, with MTV, as you know, being whelped on 8/1/81. So, her ability to push the Dead Boys on the channel was non-existent. I thought Martha was in that British band who did "Flat-Bottom Girls"----Freddie Mercury and Quinn? Oh, I know.....'twas the Beatles who name-checked her, but used Bambi's aunt to write "Martha, My Deer." Gotta be true....I got it from Brad's Wackipedia.🙄
Oh Brad, why do you think they were called the Dead Boys? They were dead to begin with—there’s no breaking up! Martha could have played The Lords of the New Church though and made them a household name….or maybe she did!
I knew Stiv was in something post-DBs; I forgot about The Lords, though. Wonder if MTV gave Martha some "conflict of interest" grief re: Stiv and The Lords vid-play.
First Lords song I've heard...kinda lost track of Stiv, sound-wise, post-DBs. Was aware of his various moves, news-wise, but that's all. Impossibly sad ending for him, though.
If their 2nd album had gotten a better production, they may have gotten a bit more recognition. Then again, something something about the angel of history. They were probably always only headed for implosion, which endears them to me even more.
Good point, Jamie! So many things can and do go into the mix of why an artist falls or zooms! Production is but one. I had to remind myself who produced "We've Come"--how on earth did Felix Pappalardi get the nod? He produced Cream and was in the kings of thud-rock, Mountain! And, we're surprised he didn't get the mission? Really?!
It's well-known that sessions stopped as the DBs became convinced Felix just didn't get them. WHO THOUGHT HE WOULD IN THE FIRST PLACE? I'm sure that's documented somewhere, and I hope it wasn't Seymour. I think the lads appreciated what Ravan did for them on "Young," and I fully get if her schedule might not have aligned with Album #2.
The apparently-suggested James Williamson (to take over from Felix) sounds inspired on paper, but why did the search end there when JW became unavailable? ....and, to the point of leading them to breaking up? Hell, call ME! I'd have loved to at least have had the opportunity to have them be my first production credit!!
Your last sentence: Great dissection. That would make them the American Sex Pistols, the actual epitome of "punk planned obsolescence." They might even, ultimately, have appreciated that notion, proudly wearing that button! They also may have loved to have kept going. *sigh*
JW might have made those guitars really icy. That's one thing I get from Felix's mix, like a version of that approach—making the snarl of Young, Loud...a bit colder sounding (although it was really about bringing Stiv up in the mix), but JW might have been able to do it in a way that didn't compromise their fury. I never knew that about James Williamson and good lord that could've been amazing. Or all wrong, who knows?
You're right about the sound, but if I grok the Boys' actual concern/complaint about Felix's contributions, it had to do mainly with their charges that he didn't "get" what they were trying to do (in the first place or ultimately), resultant sound notwithstanding.
There's no one on the planet who wouldn't have drooled at the mere mention of the prospect of bringing a former Stooge on to a DB project! Again, somebody (the Boys, Seymour....even Felix....did HE even think he "got" their vision enough to sign on?) had to see the unlikeliness of a "happy marriage" of sound and execution in the studio.
But, good on ya, Jamie, for giving Felix mad props...I'm still hung up on, not so much the sound, but how Felix (with all due respect) came to the project in the first place, especially with the 20-20 hindsight of knowing how the Boys disliked the results, which seems like the thing that hastened their implosion shortly thereafter. Ah, "the land of what might've been"!
As far as proto-punk bands go, The Dead Boys is a real blind spot for me. I need to revisit their stuff; thank you for the reminder. Sound-wise, they're just kind of bad Kiss, but with an attitude... sort of like NY Dolls or MC5, or even Alice Cooper.
The Dead Boys were pretty dang real. Seymour's Sire can hang their hat on that: With the glaring exception of the Tuff Darts, Sire's '76-'78 roster was riddled with the influential, the dedicated, and the forever-remembered as key to "the scene," "the movement," whatever you call it i.e. Talking Heads, Richard Hell, The Rezillos (well, OK), Plastic Bertrand (oops), The Undertones, The Pretenders a hair later...rarely a miss for Stein and Co.
Labels like A&M (with the Police, Joe Jackson, and you could argue The Stranglers) and Chrysalis (Blondie, Billy Idol) seemed to all have elements of exploiting the moment (punk? new wave? A valid argument element). I'M not saying all that, because I realize each has talent and great songs to offer (many I like!)--but, when the history of the moment is written, there will be few who make the final, influential cut.
The spotlight that exposes posers and exploiters is at once blinding as it is revealing. Why didn't Stiv and the lads catch on? A great debate lingers: Lack of Warner Bros. promo? No viable hit single to pitch AM? Too rough for the flaccid Fleetwood Mac-riddled FM? A glutted market for what radio and retail perceived as an insistent and confusing whirlwind of product?
I just finished Greg Graffin's autobiography, so a lot of the "post-punk" (nonsense phrase) era is on my mind. Graffin talks about Todd Rundgren (because of course he does); apparently Bad Religion recorded an album w/Todd in the early 90s, but the book focuses on the earlier era as well, as the "winners" and "losers" were sort of being decided and sorted out.
Graffin definitely implies that the label/promotion has much to do with a band's legacy, and I certainly agree with this. I think you're onto something with WB slacking, but then again, it's tough to figure out where they would have gotten much more love in a weird time in such flux.
I've touched on that dynamic somewhere FR&B. While the move, of Sire, from ABC to Warner Bros. (around '76, after the first 2 Ramones albums were released by ABC, then re-released on and for Warner's catalog) can be seen as nothing but a positive move (with regard to company cache, size, reach, and rep), there was also the very real notion of Warner being far too immersed (and monetarily motivated, granted) to keep massaging the star-making machinery of Fleetwood Macs, et al.
If the marginal acts on the parent company, not to mention affiliates, couldn't somehow manufacture interest or "buzz" on their own product on their own, The Label of The Bunny may not bother to lift a promo finger. And, yes, the late '70s was bizzzzzzy! Disco, Urban Cowboy pop/country fad, punk, the advent of videos (vid-forward artists like Bowie were already making promo vids for record stores in the late '70s, pre-MTV)....I worked in one that played them!...."Boys Keep Swinging" was one! You're right.....who coulda if WB didn't with all that going on?
Brad, I don't know if you can see this playlist or not, but I've been working on this one for a while now (and I added a Dead Boys song today!): https://www.pandora.com/playlist/PL:107738947530010181:74638688
I can see it! Great choices, Andrew! Some are a bit bold, but they all fit. The Dead Boys comin' to the party is the cherry on the sundae!
Hey, thanks for reminding me that they exist! I agree, the choices represent what I see in these bands (or even individual songs) as proto-punk, but it's ephemeral just like punk is. Playlists are really fun to make.
Okay this playlist is awesome! Wanda Jackson, Little Richard AND Iggy and the Dolls. Nicely done.
I know, right? In case Andrew doesn't see your raves, Jami, kindly leave a reply or two under his comments!👏👏
Yay! Let me know if you're interested in old-school punk, thrash, metal, or crust. I've got one for each of those genres, but maybe that's another conversation for another day.
Thanks for the history lesson Brad! I knew the song but not the band...and even still I didn’t put together that this was the sample that the Beasties used in “An Open Letter to NYC” (controversially one of my favorite albums by them.) What a fun ride! Now I also want to check out Andrew’s playlist. Your comments section is always communal and lovely.
Thanks, Jami! Andrew's Playlist is bangin'! Full of ones you'd expect, but some really cool, surprising, and appropriate selections! As I told someone last week about our comment section:
My goal is to "train" FR&B readers to check back often (as well as contribute!)....the comment section is where the action is after the article is posted! In true FRONT ROW & BACKSTAGE tradition, our comment section is our after-party! Welcome past the rope line, everyone!
In "All This and More" Bators yells "Lookout!" with a fairly idiosyncratic pronunciation. For years I thought he yelled "L'Chaim!".
Just thought I'd never have anywhere else to say that.
Happy to provide the space, Amos, and thanks for reading! Not sure how the Mr. and Mrs. raised Stiv and all the little Bators, but I love all the mondegreens (they lived just down the street) that come out of misunderstood lyrics! Goodness knows, I've had my share! I was 11 when I first heard The Beatles' "Paperback Writer" (on car radio at time of release) and thought they were singing about someone aboard a small book flying through the air...a "paperback rider"! I was surprised (and not just a little entertained) when I kept mis-hearing lyrics as I got older!
It’s a shame that major labels suppress the rise of punk and other counterculture genres for formulaic repeats. Detroit is a hotbed of garage bands and punks who continue to be ignored since the ‘70s with Iggy Pop et al. With the exception of the surprise rise of White Stripes and HRH Jack White. To think middle America can’t relate to the wild side is insane-- blue collar, middle America is birthing and rearing these sounds as we speak! What we need is a champion by way of a regional record label to give acts a career ladder (think what Sub Pop did for grunge). I thought Third Man Records was that beacon, but they favor their Nashville presence -- the new Vegas of live music -- with the Detroit scene once again abandoned for shiny, polished machines. Missed opportunities abounding.
I agree! I will give Jack mad props for furthering the vinyl notion....whether acquiring pressing plants or building more, and just being a general rock and vinyl ambassador, however more mired in corporatism he may or may not have become. I've had the pleasure of having one of Jack's Austin-based A&R cats (I'm in N. Austin, as well) as an FR&B subscriber since my 8/21 Substack start (https://substack.com/profile/45893217-mark-chance)!
I moved from ATX to Detroit in 2021. Will be back for SXSW. Will you be around? Maybe we can connect IRL.
I'll be around for SX, but I never go (crowds, expense, crowds, traffic, crowds, parking, did I mention crowds?). Holler, though, when you come, and we can get together! You'll have my e-mail shortly, as I'll be subscribing!!
Excellent! I’m co-hosting a couple of “off” SX events in south Austin but am otherwise free. Let’s figure something out 🤘🏻
All I really remember about The Dead Boys is that Stiv Bators dated MTV VJ Martha Quinn. I always thought that an odd pairing. And if a top MTV VJ couldn't get The Dead Boys more popularity, it wasn't gonna happen! Isn't Martha who the song "The Mighty Quinn" is about?:)
Didn't know about Stiv'n'Martha, but the DBs were long-split up before the dawn of MTV. They broke up by 1980, with MTV, as you know, being whelped on 8/1/81. So, her ability to push the Dead Boys on the channel was non-existent. I thought Martha was in that British band who did "Flat-Bottom Girls"----Freddie Mercury and Quinn? Oh, I know.....'twas the Beatles who name-checked her, but used Bambi's aunt to write "Martha, My Deer." Gotta be true....I got it from Brad's Wackipedia.🙄
Oh Brad, why do you think they were called the Dead Boys? They were dead to begin with—there’s no breaking up! Martha could have played The Lords of the New Church though and made them a household name….or maybe she did!
I knew Stiv was in something post-DBs; I forgot about The Lords, though. Wonder if MTV gave Martha some "conflict of interest" grief re: Stiv and The Lords vid-play.
This one was a favorite of mine.
https://youtu.be/n1Esuqywo9k
First Lords song I've heard...kinda lost track of Stiv, sound-wise, post-DBs. Was aware of his various moves, news-wise, but that's all. Impossibly sad ending for him, though.